Sometimes you just have to despair.
I was told this morning the black shahada flag that was taken down from the gates to the Will Crooks estate in Poplar on Friday morning is now back up.
I’m told this followed an angry estate meeting on Friday when wiser heads warned that re-erecting it would be provocative and bound to cause trouble.
I’m told ex-Respect councillor Dulal Uddin, who appeared on a strange Newsnight account of the affair on Friday (when there was no mention of the anti-Semitic abuse directed at me and Guardian journalists the previous evening), was the key agitator behind its return.
Dulal was one of the more unremarkable councillors during his stint from 2006-2010, but I’m told he’s desperate to get back into the council. There are some who believe he’s using this row for his own ends.
I understand that Sister Christine Frost, the community activist who asked for the flag to be taken down, is furious her actions were reported as “Christian nun tears down flag”; her actions were not faith-related but potential trouble related. I understand she disagrees with it being back up. I understand she’s concerned the issue is being exploited by politically motivated adults who don’t even live on the estate.
Whatever the motives, this is a stupid and dangerous move.
I understand that Chief Inspector Gary Anderson, of Tower Hamlets police, was present at Friday’s estate meeting. That meeting ended with a unanimous resolution to:
- re-erect the Shahada, but with explanations in English below for ‘non-Muslims’. It would say it’s a flag that affirms the Islamic faith.
- that all meet for five minutes to pray for peace in silence (all faiths and none)
- they do some “conflict resolution” work with young people
- to meet again on Monday
Some quick thoughts (I have a lunch date I need to make).
1. If they want a flag, why not settle for the Palestinian flag? Flying an Islamic flag (that experts say on a black background has jihadist overtones) sends the message this is a religious conflict.
2. This is a Tower Hamlets Homes estate. It is publicly owned. The council has ultimate control and ownership. Why is THH allowing political/religious flags to be flown from public property where people of all faiths and none live? How does that square with inclusiveness?
3. Mayor Lutfur Rahman asked for the flag to be taken down on Thursday night. Surely, he’ll have to follow that through.
4. I’ve not heard one apology from any of the leaders of the Will Crooks estate for the anti-Semitism. It’s not even mentioned in a statement I know they’ve distributed to people.
Fail all around.
More later..
UPDATE, 6pm, August 10 – Flag removed again (after police called)
The agreement of Friday’s estate meeting was, according to someone there, to re-erect the flag somewhere in the estate so long as it was accompanied by a translation of the shahada. That meeting agreed to meet again tomorrow to decide when and where it would go up.
However, last night someone broke that agreement. Key figures on the estate believe Dulal Uddin and others were agitating for it to go up again before tomorrow’s meeting.
I’m told that Sister Christine Frost rang the police this morning to tell them the flag was back up. That’s why, as Cllr Andrew Wood reported in the comments section of this blog, Ch Insp Anderson was there today.
In fact it was Ch Insp Anderson who supervised the removal of the flag again this afternoon.
Sister Christine has asked Lutfur to ensure that no religious flags are allowed in public places such as that estate. She wants to foster inclusiveness there.
Before the flag was removed again, Poplar and Limehouse MP Jim Fitzpatrick issued this statement:
“If the black flag is indeed a religious symbol and not a jihadist one, it should be displayed in a religious building and not on public property. The Mayor should instruct his officers to remove it as he did on Friday.”
In the meantime, and before Lutfur was aware of Jim’s intervention, the mayor had ordered it again to be removed. He has also asked the council’s youth service to conduct some “serious engagement” work on the estate to ensure the youth (and probably some adults) fully understand the issues.
I’m also told the estate caretakers have been told to look out for flags on their morning rounds, and remove any that have been hoisted again.
Trial by Jeory 
I feel ashamed of Tower Hamlets police.
It’s a blow-back from years of racial discrimination accusations against the MPS.
In a Borough where accusations of racism are common place, and often the only defence when being cautioned or criticised, the MPS have over reacted by adopting a dangerous ‘hands-off’ approach.
Other than serious crime, the @MPSTowerHam are woefully lacking in their ability to police minor ASB in the borough. This strategy comes from the top and we must look to Chief Superintendent Dave Stringer for an explanation.
Idiot Lutfur started it all!
He should have stayed away from it in the first place.
Putting the flag up….whereas it was taken down, put up again and taken down again….
He created precedent….
Anything will do in TH.
Superintendent Stringer?
Follows the crowd in power 🙂
I have just come back from the flag site. Chief Inspector Gary Anderson has been there all day since 9am monitoring the situation as he is worried about community conflict and EDL etc turning up (hopefully the rain will keep them away). Sister Christine Frost was also there. There is only 1 flag left the black flag with white lettering, the Palestine flags have gone.
Chief Inspector Anderson confirms that it is not the ISIS flag (he has had the Arabic text translated) as the lettering represents one of the 4 pillars of Islam.
There is however no translation provided of what the text actually means as had been promised. You just see the black flag and a number of signs in red lettering on white paper (which I summarise below).
The Chief Inspector believes that it was not locals who put up the flag again.
He called the Deputy Mayor yesterday to inform him that the flag was back.
He does not want to create a crisis by intervening to pull down the flag but he clearly wants it down but he wants the local community to do it, I suspect Sister Christine might organise something but she does not want to climb a ladder as it is pretty high up.
While I was there a group of local youths asked what I was doing there but when I told them I was the councillor from the neighbouring ward they were friendly especially when I suggested that Arabic was a hard language to learn. None of them piped up to say they could speak the language!
The messages below the flag included;
– ‘Free Palestine’
– ‘Pro justice’
– Anti-Zionist Not Jewish’ – I think they meant to write not Anti-Zionist not anti-Jewish but I did notice the standard of English on the signs was not great which is an argument that lack of education is part of the problem
– ‘Media tell lies to sell lies’ a good thing that Teds blog is free !
– ‘To exist is to resist’
– ‘Pro-religion, anti-Zionist, fascist and marginalizing’
– ‘Free Burma, free Gaza, free Syria, free Afghanistan’
The Mayor needs to intervene and ask the local community to take the flag down.
Andrew – it occurs to me you may have more success if you ask Tower Hamlets Homes to intervene to remove the flag from their property.
In the meantime could you find out where the Police are getting their expert advice from on how to handle the situation.
>Andrew Wood
Minor correction (you state): ‘Anti-Zionist Not Jewish’ – I think they meant to write not Anti-Zionist not anti-Jewish’
I would disagree, I suspect they meant to write, ”Anti-Zionist Not Anti-Jewish’.
The crux here is the objection to a Jewish state. Like many, not least the 150,000 people who marched yesterday, the solution is a One State (of Palestine).
For reference, you, and others may benefit from viewing this interview with George Galloway: bit.ly/1oTaBtI . Although I’ve crossed swords with Galloway on minor issues in the past, I applaud his assessment here. It will give a better understanding of the conflict and possible solution
taking into account that this borough spends 000s on translation surely they can find someone on their pay role to translate. This reinforces the general law abiding community feeling that the Council itself encourages racism and fascists views.
The standard of policing in Tower Hamlets on matters like this and the incident in the Blackwall Tunnel is becoming both very disappointing and very worrying.
I wonder what would happen if worried residents wrote to Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and expressed their views and concerns about what is happening to the standard of policing in Tower Hamlets – within the context of community safety and the need to promote social cohesion?
I don’t know if this is correct but a site online which provides the email addresses of the “people at the top” indicates his email address is bernard.hogan-howe@met.police.uk
surely the fact that it was recognized at the meeting as being at the very least racially sensitive, means that if the erector of the new or similar flag was aware of this feeling, they are guilty of incitement?
Presumably there is some CCTV that might be viewed? (though in another borough the new boyfriend of a friend boasted the estate manager had a fair price to ditch the tapes, as if he was proud of having a affordable quality convenience store..)
At the very least, it seems a investigations is appropriate.
Flags have significance, from games of “capture the flag” as a child on holiday, to computer shootemups to the very real world, where a flag symbolizes capture of territory, ruling authority, jurisdiction, or allegiance.
At all times, there is a symbolism of territory, attached to a flag.
Territory, jurisdiction, authority, legitimacy…
Any flag flying alternative to representing legitimate authority, in proper context, by a legitimate authority or recognized neutral body, is a potential provocation.
This is what makes any flag not flown by genuine authority a controversial subject, quite without any further consideration beyond the fact of a flag being flown.
I forget the details, but were there not restrictions on public display of flags, enacted into law, for the olympic event?
I find even the flying of a St George’s Cross to be off putting, when raised by private individuals, because of the unfortunate connotation that can be made with whet racialist and supremacists.
A flag invites even a neutral, rational, mind, to lower it, for all of these reasons.
The act of raising and lowering a flag, therefore causes disruption and tension.
If you are not flying a flag in a official capacity, or intentional in sympathy with equally representative flags, such as may be flown at a conference center or sporting arena, anticipating international audiences, I believe you’ve no place to be doing so.
The universal symbolism of the act of flying a flag is equally universally understood. In this context, that the act is a offense, ought to be Q.E.D.
:..
I appear to be misguided as to legal restrictions on flying national flags, here’s some wider debate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5212840.stm
Tangentially, the misconception even that there is law against flying a national flag, is unfortunate, also, because it could induce a person to think it is more provocative to fly different flags. All this aside, you would only think, or hope at least, that in LBTH, anything with racial or religious connotations in public display, would be considered seriously and equanimously, by TPTB. I wonder, however if the decision is not made that acting further upon the incident in question, would be “bad policing” because of risk of causing unsettle those who raised it. If you have a authority afraid to act upon rational and balanced thought, the question follows as to whether one has a reliable authority.
Maybe you should mention this ex cllr Dulal is a labour party member and campaigned for John Biggs, and has on many occasions expressed his hatred for Lutfur.
If ISIS supporters want to raise a flag to show their support for this disgusting organization, so be it, however, don’t expect respect from non-muslim residents.
This will not end well. Sister Christine is right about the potential for disturbance especially when students start back at Tower Hamlets College in numbers . And the complete ignoring of the anti-semitic comments made to you is very telling and disturbing. We need Lutfur to show some leadership not just give soundbites and THH should step in as it is their property and their responsibility. They are quick enough to remove fire hazards.
No, Judith, we do not need Lutfur to ‘show leadership’, as Lutfur is at the forefront of anti-Semit…. ahem, anti-Zionist, Palestine-flag waving sentiment in the borough. If he ‘shows leadership’, this fascism will just get worse.
What we need if for DCLG to remove Lutfur, a la Anglesey, and for the police to go in mob-handed.
But of course Judith you are a craven member of the Labour Party that STILL – even after the humiliating loss in the May election – thinks that if it can just win over enough Bengalis, just pander hard enough, just play the Bengali Muslim game (even though they only constitute 32% of the borough population) then you can win, and if Labour wins all will be right.
The problems are far more deep rooted and their solution can only come through the disfranchisement of the borough. But you don’t want to face up that – you think a Labour election victory is enough. It isn’t. While TH First is one face of the enablement of Islamism in the borough, TH Labour is just another.
The “black flag of khorasan” is a flag associated with MURDER, WAR and – so some believe – the end of the world.
This black flag is UNDENIABLY associated with Al-Qaeda and other Jihad groups. An identical one to the one flown in Poplar is used by the Al-Qaeda affiliate named the Al-Nusra Front in Syria. A similar one is used by ISIS.
This black flag is seen in the background of MOST beheading videos and MOST martyrdom videos. It is seen in the background of Islamic Jihad videos. It is seen in the background of Osama bin Laden fan videos. It is seen in the background of the martyrdom video of Umar Farouk Abdulmutalib the “underwear bomber”. It is seen in the background of the martyrdom video of Ahmed Abdullah Ali who was the leader of the 2006 “liquid bomb” plot to blow up 10 transatlantic jets. It is seen in the beheading video of Piotr Stanszak in Pakistan in 2009. it is seen in the martyrdom video of Umar Islam, another British jihadi failure. It is seen behind Ken Bigley when he is being beheaded and also behind fellow beheadees Eugene Armstrong, Nick Berg, Giorgi Lazov, Kim Sun-Il, Shosei Koda and Jack Hensley as well as the beheading of Seif Adnan Kanaan (an Iraqi who served drinks to American troops)..
And the good, moderate, peaceful Muslims of the Will Crooks estate VOTED UNANIMOUSLY to put this flag back. And the police let them.
I am utterly ashamed by the craven and useless police of this borough who are failing in their duty to protect the public.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1r_WcCnJR8
The local community apparently voted for it to come down, it was another group not from the estate who put it up. Promises apparently were also made in the meeting which were not kept i.e. to provide a translation of the contents of the flag and the police have been there all day monitoring the situation which when I arrived was very quiet.
Thanks for that additional information, which I had not got to initially.
To have police patrolling or “monitoring” a situation all day in person sounds like they treat it more seriously.
But then, if there is CCTV, would they not look at that?
Because I omitted or consider the obvious potential of “false flag” provocation.
If you post a couple of bobbies on the corner, presumably no one is likely to hoist flag in front of them, nor start something going on. So what is the aim, if they are not more worried? Deterrent? Enforcing the “community decision”? *What will happen if the flag is flown the moment the police are withdrawn? Does that not risk the police being blamed, even? I really think that the act of hoisting the flag again, after it is debated as a _risk of causing offence, even just that a risk, means that anyone aware of the debate or decision absolutely is provoking by their action, and at the very least they could be informally warned sternly. That’s more my mind’s view of better policing: proving the will and capability to catch a perpetrator, and wherever possible using soft power in the first instance.
How, anyway, does one define “the local community”. I know this is a old one, but has anyone got any clue how this is arranged?
*policing a “community decision” is also the wrong message, because it reinforces a arbitrary, ad hoc, and probably to the majority of residents, unknown, authority. It is no more than private policing of a public estate for a unofficial body. Is this sort of thing common? Some people must think the police are mugs doing their bidding, maybe accepting this flag can be lowered, in appraisal, but storing brownie points and creating precedent for who is the “community leader” in future. It also creates false trust, of cooperation that could be manipulation, which trust can be misused later.
Take it down. My parents are in Israel on holiday, you make me feel Jewish.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
________________________________
From: Trial by Jeory
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:11:35 +0000
To:
ReplyTo: Trial by Jeory
Subject: [New post] The ‘Black Flag of Poplar’ is back up…and no apology for the anti-Semitism
trialbyjeory posted: “Sometimes you just have to despair. I was told this morning the black shahada flag that was taken down from the gates to the Will Crooks estate in Poplar on Friday morning is now back up. I’m told this followed an angry estate meeting on Friday when”
How depressing – matter of time before some EDL type wingnuts decide to get involved and we’re back into another cycle of idiocy.
Well done Ted for your reporting on this (and, indeed, other TH issues). Good to see a journalist so willing to do a bit of legwork.
I’ve been called all sorts of anti-Muslim things since 9/11 by Christians and Jews – I don’t expect an apology from silly people.
Honestly Ted, you really do like to bang on about nothing, trying to provoke a bunch of petty thugs. Ignore it and the flag will go away. It’s kind of stupid of these people to attached IS (or ISIS) army to the Palestinian cause. Look closer, this black flag does not resemble the IS flag. It’s desperate times where Israel (with US and UK support) continues to collectively bomb and kill innocent women and children and sane arguments fall on deaf ears.
Any more terrorist excusers on his thread? I’ve already seen that Galloway ahole quoted as being someone good to listen to and now this taqiyya nonsense. You don’t think for a minute that the thugs who raised this flag knew what it said. It is a jihadist flag. It doesn’t matter what the unreadable lettering says. A black flag is a black flag is a black flag and symbol of islamic terrorism. And just a reminder from the taliban, there is no moderate islam, there is no radical islam, there is only islam and they are sworn to either enslave or kill all non-muslims.
Newspaniard, there are many different groups within Islam just like there is within Christianity and only a few them are dangerous. When I lived in Saudi Arabia it was obvious that many Saudis are actually not very Islamic. Unfortunately the small groups are the ones who make all of the noise and put up the black flags, the real problem is that the majority of Muslims do not know how how to deal with the minority. People like you also do not help as you exaggerate the threat and make the situation worse.
These past few years have opened my eyes to the rise in terrorism and also lo the lack of action from our police and parliamentarians for fear of being called either racist or islamaphobe. Unlike other ostriches, my head is well above the sand watching as the predators circle even though I can do nothing about it but squawk, as I do here. It is well past the time for the excusers who point the finger the other way, like where they say “It’s not hamas, it’s the Jews”, when all the time hamas is using their women and children as human shields. As has been said many times, “Don’t shoot the messenger”. There is only one hate book for true muslims to follow and that is the koran.
Bollocks
Anyone with a passing knowledge of street violence in N Ireland will know that the flying of flags, and disputes over those flags, played a key role in some of the confrontations that initiated the N Ireland conflict.
If senior police in Tower Hamlets can’t grasp that, perhaps they will when/if another group arrives to take down this flag?
Please forgive me for hijacking your thread Ted, but I have to get this posted somewhere. I’d have posted it as a blog but I don’t know how.
My MP is Rushanara Ali so it would be pointless to send it to her, she has never answered any of my emails since she was elected. Sending it to the police likewise.
Could anyone here advise me who I should send this letter to?
Sorry to barge in like this, but I have been very depressed since yesterday, it’s hard to believe it happened.
…………………………………………………………………
At 5.38 pm on Saturday 9 August 2014 I made an emergency call for police assistance from my phone xxxxxxxxxxx
Shortly before the call I was leaving Marks and Spencer’s Marble Arch store alone where I had been having coffee with friends, when I encountered a rowdy group consisting of mainly muslim men and women surrounding what I later assumed to have been an elderly Jewish woman who was being jostled by the crowd. She was being bullied for speaking out for Israel.
There had been a demonstration in Hyde Park and these people had obviously been at the demo. I was concerned for the woman’s safety, I would estimate she was not more than 5’ 0’’ tall and I tapped the shoulder of a white male who had been shouting at her. In order to deflect his anger I politely asked him why had Hamas broken all of the cease fires to date? He and the crowd immediately turned on me and while this was happening the lady managed to escape.
The mood was ugly and the white male made as if to punch me in my face. He was restrained by what I later learned were his wife and daughter. This violent behaviour provoked the muslims to further anger, and one of them threatened me by saying something like ‘you old man (I am 75) I will smash your teeth out’ and other muslims began pushing me in the chest while the muslim women kept brandishing their mobiles in my face in an extremely threatening manner. The white male was laughing at this point.
I managed to extricate myself from the by now screaming crowd and was able to make the emergency call.
The sight of me making the call seemed to subdue the crowd somewhat, which began to disperse, and both the white male and his wife and daughter together with the muslim who had threatened to smash my teeth, accompanied by some others, began to walk east past Selfridges, that is, on the north side of Oxford Street. For the next 20 minutes I was in constant contact with the 999 operator who advised me as to my safety and assured me she was searching for an available police car while I continued to keep the people who had assaulted me in view.
Several times the white male’s daughter approached me and tried to speak, but I was in constant conversation with the 999 operator and refused to talk to her. I think the operator must have realised something was happening as she repeatedly told me to find a place of safety until the police arrived.
After about ten minutes the muslim turned and left the white male and walked past me in the opposite direction. I decided to stay with the white male. The operator kept telling me there was a car in the vicinity but I saw no sign of it.
Close to the Bond Street construction site there was a police van driven by a female officer either parked or stopped at the lights. I tapped on the window and asked the male passenger if he was there in answer to my call. He said no, but got out of the vehicle and was followed by I think two other police officers in what I took to be a kind of riot kit. I explained what had happened to the first officer who took my phone and spoke at length to the operator. I could not hear the conversation. I also pointed out the man who had assaulted me. He was then the focus of interest of the police who had got out of the van.
Shortly after I was approached by an officer I had not spoken to who ordered me to stand by a shop window so that he could talk to me. His attitude seemed somewhat threatening. He told me that the person I had accused was making a counter claim in that I had used obscene and threatening language to his wife and daughter. I immediately realised that the officer had no interest in my side of the story and furthermore he criticised me for wasting the crew’s time, saying they had better things to do.
He offered me the alternatives of either walking away and forgetting about it or he would arrest me along the the other party and we would be charged at a police station.
At this point I was more frightened than at any time since the trouble began. I realised that if I were taken into custody (needless to say for something I hadn’t done!) I would be at the mercy of the police and I was in real fear for my safety. I have seen YouTubes of police assaults on innocent people in police stations and the perpetrators getting away scot free, so, in some distress, I called the officer an asshole who again threatened me with arrest. I then realised what this man could do to me in a cell and I walked away.
The officer’s attitude was bullying and his behaviour was loutish. But then, I should have realised this from the moment he ordered me across the pavement.
I regret calling the officer an asshole, it was cheap but I do not apologise for it. There is much better prose I could summon up, but there goes esprit d’escalier.
The police car never turned up, whether because they couldn’t find me (despite an excellent description) or the first officer had cancelled the order. I wasn’t told.
In summary, I went to the aid of an elderly and frail Jewish woman, surrounded by white and muslim Jew-hating thugs, and was not only assaulted for my pains but was soon afterwards threatened with arrest by a bullying police thug for wasting his time.
I am disgusted by this incident and never again will I ever trust the police, who seem hard and brave when they are dealing with an ordinary citizen, but are too cowardly to do anything other than stand and watch arsonists and looters destroy neighbourhoods or panic and run in the face of muslim rioters. It’s all out there on the Web to see.
My father was a wonderful man, a policeman of great integrity and renown and I grew up to respect the police force, thinking they were all like my father.
How stupid could I get?
Ian McKenna
This is not a formal complaint, simple a description of an incident. It has been copied elsewhere as a precaution. Under no circumstances must police call at my home.
Badger,
That’s a shocking piece to read.
I suggest you should send it to Bernard Hogan-Howe, possibly at the eMail address given but certainly in writing to New Scotland Yard, SW1H 0BG (and send it recorded delivery if at all possible.) I’d also send it to Rushanara Ali, not that it will make much difference but she remains local MP so should be copied in. Make it clear that you expect a response within a given time frame (14 days perhaps) otherwise you will escalate it to the IPCC, and don’t be afraid to do so if necessary.
I am glad you survived without serious injury.
Tim.
Thanks Tim. I am doing that now.
It’s the same thuggish mob mentality in Manchester city centre where a perfectly decent law-abiding British jewish-owned business that’s been here for years has been targeted day in day out by Hamas apologists because they sell products using minerals from the Dead Sea. Some local city centre shop workers staged their own protest the other day because they were fed up with being intimidated and threatened. The scenes of blatantly anti-Jewish, placard-wielding, chanting zealots milling around and attempting to close down a business are utterly chilling, evoking images of the boycotting of Jewish shops in 1930s Berlin and the attacks on German-owned shops in the East End during WW1. Naturally, as in Tower Hamlets, and outside Marble Arch M&S, none of these scary mobsters will ever condemn or protest about what the vicious IS islamic fascists are up to, or the home-grown versions and wannabes in Tower Hamlets. Oh, and Manchester’s police chief has mishandled the situation here badly here too.
There is so much on this web page, it would be a major time consuming event to reply to every point.
1. The police are crap. Badly manager and inadequately supervised and a predominantly white force with lots of political correctness. Many long serving whites hate what the Met has become. They really do detest the attitude of some in the job but are afraid to speak-out for fear of intimidation and victimisation. Yes ladies and gentlemen – some Met cops are afraid of other Met cops if the good ones speak-out about the bad goings-on that occur every day in the Met. This has been hushed-up but why should this failure to act honourably be kept secret from the public ?????????
2. Ian should DEFINITELY send his complaint to Keith Vaz, MP. email vazk–at–parliament.uk. Mr Vaz just happens to be the chairman of the parliamentary Home Affairs Select Committee. He seems to chew-up coppers for breakfast – politely of course but very sternly too.
3. Ian should make a formal complaint to the IPCC – they are slowly improving their performance and it is certainly worth doing.
4. One bad copper can undo many years of good police work. It only takes one rotten apple to slowly turn the entire barrel into a purifying mess.
Ian, I am very saddened to hear how the police, whilst serving you as a member of the public, behaved. It is dreadful and an insult to the notion of policing by consent. We don’t won’t thugs, hooligans and other villains in the police.
Ian, you have to formerly complain. Not only because of your own experience but for the sake of millions of other people you have never met. The officer’s conduct was dreadful and deserves a Gross Misconduct Hearing at the minimum if not a criminal charge of Misconduct in a Public Office. Letting the bastard get away with this will only encourage more and worse conduct by the civilians in police uniforms.
Thank you for having the courage to go public on this serious incident.
Curious Cat.
Thank you for your support, Cat.
I shall email it to Kieth Vaz today.
Ian,
No need to thank me. By complaining you will be doing EVERYONE a favour. Your complaint is in the public interest.
Keith Vaz’s constituency office may get confused and tell you he is not your MP., so please tell them you want to contact Keith Vaz in his role as chairman of the Home Affairs select committee because something needs to be done about the Met Police.
Also send a copy directly to the parliamentary Home Affairs Select Committee
homeaffcom –at– parliament.uk
and state an enquiry into the conduct and attitude of the Met Police, especially after so many scandals, will be beneficial as well as reassuring the public Parliament is not turning a blind eye to this worrying problem on the streets of the nation’s capital.
Good luck.
Curious Cat
Police Force – Read this post from Badger and hang your heads in absolute shame.
According to Limehouse Police the terrorist flag (which the police seem quite incapable of defining for what it actually is) was taken down at 14:15 after Chief Inspector Anderson spoke to the “elders”.
Here are some images for Dave Stringer to look at. Now concentrate, Dave….look at me….focus. I know it is tough and it goes against the IFE training course you went on but the people in these videos are terrorists who want to murder “kafurs”. Well, I am an infidel and I feel threatened by these implied threats to kill.
John,
They don’t care.
Ian’s experience was not an unusual occurrence in the Met’s geographical area. The copper has done it before, again and again, that is why he was so confident he would get away with it again.
Curious Cat.
Would it not be possible to erect the flag of Israel at the same place, just to show equality?
Thought not, the person doing so might be accused of all sorts, and have the police, local council and courts to answer to. Not forgetting at street level, the anger of those who put those first flags there.
This is just asking for confrontation by supporters of all sides to kick off, and the police will have the knowledge that they chose to let it go that way.
The police acted against the “Muslim Patrols” and now refuse to act over this, it is sickening.
As was the council for flying a Palestine flag (albeit upside down), this will explode into street level rivalry.
Why erect the flag of a county of terrorists who shell, bomb and rocket innocent civilians and destroy their homes ?
Surely some morals should be involved ? I love my family but if they became terrorists I would not want to proudly fly the family’s flag – instead I would feel ashamed, embarrassed, horrified and upset. They would still be my family but I would utterly condone their actions instead of pretending there is noting wrong with their terrorist activities.
In the present circumstances the Palestinian official flag is fine with me.
Curious Cat
Did you really mean “condone”?
I mean condemn
Thank you for attracting my attention to my mistake.
CC.
its not just the police force I am annoyed with, BUT with the stupid arses in the Council that condone this kind of action. One of the above replies gave comparison to N. Ireland I would not dismiss that comparison lightly
What is completely missing here is real leadership from LBTH, the Mayor and the Met. The flag is on council ( TH HOMES) property. It is a flag that has conotations with jihadi practice. It is also a creedal statement that many non muslims would reject and indeed find disagreeable ( ie that there is no God apart from the Muslim understanding of God). It is fine for them to believe this but to fly it from the entrance to the esatate essentially is terrritorial and makes the point that Islam is supreme in the place. Even without the jihadi connections this would be unacceptable (given that it is a public space) but given those, the Met, LBTH and the Mayor should and ought to act.
Both the Mayor ( who yesterday tweeted about his commitment to peace love, harmony and opposing racism and sexism – even with a set of councillors that is entirely Bengali and nealry all men) and the Police have a responsibility to act and probably want the flag gone but are afraid of how they will be percieved if they do so. That is not leadership or valuing community relations, but cowardice, This is extremely distubing when coming from the Police.
Clearly this flag is intimidating ( indeed the reason that the flag was initially mis-identified was the fact that anyone going near it was subject to hostility and questioning, and in the case of Ted, anti Semitic harrasment ) and if the Mayor is serious about Tower Hamlets being ‘No place for hate’, then he needs to act soon. The nightmare scenario otherwise is the far right use this to start stirring up hatred.
See update on blog post. The mayor did intervene
Well done to Lutfur ( not words i often say…) for actually acting. Now the important thing is to address the issues around the culture of politics/ governance/community etc that set a tone which enables people to behave in this kind of way.
Do you think that maybe the Mayor has had time to reflect on the wisdom of his flag episode?
@ londonshoes,
“well done to Lufthur”..
Maybe he can set up a few more “flag days”, so he can intervene, and win the trust of more gullible people than you …
Sadly, i am that cynical, but then I would also have any police officer known to consult with “community leaders” charged with perverting the course of justice… so maybe I do not live in the “real world” that officers must face, Lufthur Rahman’s and all…
This direct harassment is disturbing, because it is the sort of thing that needs the be stamped out before it gets “managed” into a theater of stand off. I am of Jewish heritage,(and am disturbed by pro Zionist supporters as much as anti Zionists alike) and I remember my prep school, the whole school, where I was close friends with a handful of Lebanese, both Christian and Muslim, refugees all from Beirut, bursting into anti Jewish sentiment, out of nowhere. Suddenly my friends and I were all at loggerheads. To this day I can’t believe how swift it was.. and I believe it was possibly that one boy who was frankly a emotional disaster zone, very broken family, hyperactive to say the least, finally antagonizing someone so much they called him a yid and probably worse. You have to be intolerant of intolerance, or society will find reason to tear itself apart. The Lord Of The Flies, if not along religious lines. The whole school was put in detention upon any further incident, until it subsided. If only one could realize such results in extramural context. Society, or large society, is always fragile, because humans gravitate to much smaller cohesive groups. The most dangerous thing, is whittling away at the innate trust citizens give to authorities, the police… and I think we have done a terrible thing, by expending effectively arbitrary powers as we have done, through expansionist, heavy handed, legislature passed by executive alone.
Bit fed up of excuses being made for the younger people doing this. Not doing well at school? Whose fault is that? Tower Hamlets gets more money per pupil than ANY other authority in the UK. Huge spending on facilities, equipment and for extra curricular activities.
Youths lack of money? Don’t they get EMA whilst 99% of the country had it taken away? Don’t they live in a place with more jobs within 2 miles than 99% of the country.
It’s a result of families not giving a damn in many instances, and segregation pushed by all UK authorities (council, police, national politicians etc) who push divisive multi culturalism, which fuels ignorance and continues the cycle.
Lutfur Rahman started this flag nonsense. Shahed Ali gave a clear example to the youths by his harassment and intimidation of Sainsbury’s customers in Whitechapel.
All this has nothing to do with Gaza, children, flag being black or white, meaning this or that. It is about Rahman and his gang cynically exploiting the situation to drive non-Muslim residents out of the borough.
The good thing is that the flag issue can actually lead to some divisions but exclusively between different Muslim groups. Who cares about a small estate that only hit the news once before when Bengali boys were chasing each other with knives? Why would any EDL supporter even consider finding it on the map? Jewish community are rather about self defense than looking for trouble?
If Rahman tries to police this problem, if he gets involved, there might be hopefully some backlash from those who really feel strong about Gaza and would see through his cynical political agenda.
Wasn’t it Tesco’s rather than Sainsburys? CAn’t thinkwhy that would be.
=> Tim,
The Roman Catholic Church renounced and condemned historic child sexual abuse.
Why does the BNP refuse to renounce and condemn attacks by its members on the public ?
Curious Cat.
What is this about muslims and Sainsbury’s?
I live almost next door to them, though I only go there if I’ve run out of milk.
Are white people being harassed?
Badger – You idiot.
Ian/Badger. I’m told you’re a member of the BNP and I’ve seen posts of yours on other blogs where you deny this.
But I do wonder.
Please refrain from commenting here if you are or hold their views.
Ted,
Genuinely curious – why do you not want someone who is a BNP member to post on this blog? It’s your blog and hence your rules, but such censorship seems to go against the free speech ethic that you cultivate so well on here.
The BNP is a legitimate UK political party. To say “No labour supporters on here” or “Please don’t post if you voted LibDem in the last election” would seem strange.
Tim.
Tim,
Ted didn’t mention Labour or the Lib Dems.
Ted appears to dislike the behaviour, over many years, that many associate with the BNP.
Whether one likes the brown skins (only a few are genuinely black in colour), the (Indian sub-continent) “Asians”, the Paddies, the Jocks, the Taffies and now the Poles, pragmatically we all have to live together in peace and harmony because the alternative is civil unrest and war.
The BNP have in the past physically attacked non-English looking (meaning non-white) people for no good reason other than they were not “pure English” in appearance despite some having an outstanding mastery of a “normal” English accent and of English literacy.
No one can chose their parents and no one can chose their skin colour. Accept people for their qualities – not their difference from someone’s perceived ideal stereotype.
Curious Cat.
Compare ISIS and the BNP. Compare that fat “caliph” and cross-eyed Griffin. Does the BNP actually go around murdering people by sawing off their heads with knives and opening the bellies of pregnant women. Is the BNP currently leading a bloody soaked army rampaging about driving hundreds of thousands from their homes? So surely someone sympathising with the BNP while not being great is not quite as bad as someone supporting ISIS and yet they don’t get threatened with blog expulsion. Hamas are more violent, oppressive and bigoted than the BNP … but supporting them is seen as compulsory to all Guardian readers (and councillors?)…. It’s all double standards and it’s not a good look.
CC,
The fact that Ted doesn’t mention Labour or LibDems simply makes it more strange; why the dislike for one political party to the extent that those who are members are not allowed to post on this blog?
Many things have been done in the name of the BNP historically which don’t look good, although such criticism can be levelled at any and all parties – and indeed any and all races. Why single one out for censorship and not the others? Is this not BNP-phobia, along the same lines as the (much-vaunted) Islamophobia? If any progress is to be made in LBTH it will be by actually cutting out hate, not just transferring the hate to another object/group/partym – and I’m both disappointed and surprised that such an approach is taken on this blog.
GM, I’m entirely with you – thanks for putting it much better than I could. My only observation would be that being ‘slightly less bad than the rest’ is not much to crow about – this isn’t a race to the bottom.
Tim.
=> Maurice,
I was not aware I compared the BNP to the Islamic State – both have caused terror to, and inflicted violence upon, innocent civilians.
Curious Cat.
=> Tim,
Many things have been done in the name of the BNP historically which don’t look good, although such criticism can be levelled at any and all parties – and indeed any and all races.
I honestly do not believe the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party have ever beaten-up civilians in the streets of the UK or scared some so badly that they are afraid to go out whenever a of the political party occurs.
Curious Cat.
CC,
Thanks for your answers. However I’m not quite sure what the connection with the Catholic Church is.
The BNP is a legitimate political party in the UK. I am curious as to why membership of it should cause Ted to bar someone from posting on here. However I am guessing that as Ted has chosen not to answer the question at this point in time he would prefer not to.
Thanks again.
Tim.
=> Tim,
The Roman Catholic Church and the BNP are public organisations recruiting members from the public. Both have done wrong, through the actions of its members, and only one has apologised and that ‘one’ has introduced stringent procedures to prevent re-occurrences and to report to the authorities all new occurrences.
Surely the BNP could do the same ?
I suspect Ted’s family have suffered from BNP behaviour or even violence so perhaps a BNP presence in Ted’s blog reawakens emotional memories.
Curious Cat.
Maybe because they hate black people?
In the past few weeks LBTH have begun to sleepwalk into an increasingly worrying situation. End of Eid charity car washes that are essentially disguised anti-Israel political protests; Blackwall tunnel demo; the Mayor’s Grand-old-Duke-of-York-esque flag hoisting/lowering palava and now the Poplar debacle.
The Mayor has shown very poor judgement and his actions have ADDED TO the tension, rather than diffuse it.
On the one hand he incites division with the community leading to some young muslims verbally attacking “jewish-looking” non locals, and then he has the gall to condemn their actions.
I totally agree JohnJee…
As for whether Jim Fitz or the Police believe any of the mistruths propagated by the “out of context” brigade; here are some examples of the black flag in use:
Is this all part of a wider trend?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/uk-sharia-patrols-screaming-allahu-akbar-stop-street-parties-music
Now its in our backyard perhaps we might start taking the Israel-Palestine crisis seriously – it is largely of British making after all. It’s resolution is the key to unlocking a multitude of problems.
Two points to remember – Palestine has a large Christian population, and I think I’m right in saying that the majority of Israeli’s origins were from Arab states.
Thing is, if I walked through South Tottenham/Stamford Hill/Stoke Newington waving a St Georges flag past all those Synagogues, Catholic Churches, and those African ones too, nothing would be said.
But if I did the same in Stepney/Mile End/Poplar/Bow you just know something will happen.
But for me to point that difference out is apparently extremist of me.
Us Londoners should not have to feel unsafe or outsiders in London, but we are, with the support from certain local councils who fly those foreign intimidating flags from a British Town Hall.
I think Mayor Rahman needs to employ a [new] foreign policy advisor. Alternatively: Just Empty The Bins
Shahed Ali reminds of Rodney Trotter for some reason
V funny. Shahed, has anyone called you that before? Is Shiraj Haque ‘Del Boy’?
Funny you are saying that JohnJee – it seems that Shahed Ali is the loudest screaming foreign policy specialist in Tower Hamlets right now. A real middle east peace strategist. Yet, at the same time and that is what makes your comment so relevant, he is supposed to be responsible for emptying the bins and keeping the borough clean.
Ted are you not making a mountain out of this molehill? Are you low on content? Do you agree with this recent piece by Mehdi Hassan:
‘Sections of the British press are encouraging Islamophobia and publishing “brazen lies” that exacerbate community tensions, one of the UK’s leading Muslim journalists has said’
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5661667?utm_hp_ref=uk
A lot of Muslims I speak to think your paper (Express) and blog have been the worst culprits alongside Gilligan & co.
Interested in what you have to say about this, thanks
My blog? Explain. (Btw, that piece wasn’t by Mehdi, it was about Mehdi…on Mehdi’s site. The reporter who wrote it used to write at the, er, Daily Express. That said, he makes some v good points.)
No he’s not.
The people who are exacerbating community tensions round here are those flying flags.
You can imagine the scene when they were “divvying out” the jobs and Shahed/Rodders got the bins… “Oh cosmic”
“But it’s ok you can go to Jenin and when you come back tell everyone about it”
Anyone remember way back in the 1980s when some of the Labour councillors
who were Irish Republican sympathisers, renamed a block of flats in Poplar after the IRA terrorist Bobby Sands? I don’t recall Protestant christians being afraid to go out or IRA terrorists taking over the borough. Of course those IRA guys didn’t have darkie faces though.
Who’d live in London, eh. No wonder you can’t move in Worcestershire and Herefordshire without hearing the voice of an ex-Londoner. Why don’t you all get out now while the going is good?
A very worrying account from Badger. The police officer who came across intimidating and threatening should be indentified and action taken against. This no way to treat anyone and especially an elderly gentleman who was clearly in distress. I do hope you take this further with the authorities.
The black flag issue has been blown out of proportion and now could turn into a serious issue. This is clearly youths marking their territory, a few years back they would have sprayed some graffiti. It should have been left at that.
Regarding the black flag with Arabic writing; it says “there is no one worthy of worship but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God”
This Arabic writing can actually be found everywhere in Muslim homes, mosques and public buildings in the Muslim world. However the combination of the black background with these words are clearly now a symbol of Jihad, even if this is not the intention. As a Muslim I have no problem in saying this.
There is a worrying trend amongst the vast majority of the UK Muslims particularly those who are actually ‘British’, to be seen as being ‘good’ Muslim. This means, they must SEEN to be supporting Islamic causes, supporting Muslim candidates, forwarding endless Islamic messages, defending Islam in every debate etc.
This is sometimes muddling their judgements as to what is right proper as if something is SEEN as ‘Islamic’ it is deemed be ‘right’.
My view is that this generation is now at a crossroad and we are struggling to find an identity we can claim to. Most are too far apart from their parental home and not yet integrated enough to the British identity. This leaves a big whole which religion is filling.
If you compare the family photo album of an average Bangladeshi Muslim family from 30 years ago to now you’ll find the old family album would have mum in saari with probably half her head covered, dad would be in a suit clean shaven and all siblings neatly dressed in western clothes. But now dad will be sporting a beared as would most of his sons. Mum and sisters will all be wearing hijaabs.
The cultural change isn’t simply in fashion but in ideology too. Where in the old family photo album, mum and dad would be proud to call themselves ‘Londoni’ (Bengali version of Londoners/British) now they would identify themselves firstly as ‘Muslims’. Very few would call themselves a Londoner or simply as British. It would have to be ‘British Muslim’
Therefore all our actions are in accordance with what we perceive to be ‘Islamically’ correct from how we dress to what we eat, how we vote, and how we get involved in world politics. In the absence of any other identity, this will be the case for this and probably the next generation.
They are not integrating because the authorities have pushed multi culturalism which has left various groups living separate, detached lives and barely mixing with anyone different. The authorities are terrified of pushing integration.
As for your graffiti comment – its not blown out of proportion, if they had sprayed offensive graffiti and then abused and threatened people that would be just as bad. The youth in Tower Hamlets have more money spent per head than ANY other local authority in the entire UK. Just think about that. Hundreds of councils, counties, cities etc and TH are the very top in getting money. They are bloody lucky and the only excuse for being so ignorant and stupid is that they live isolated lives with too many ignorant people. The way to overcome that is push through integration and stop being terrified of accusations of racism and islamophobia that will surely follow.
Someone needs to look at the “tower hamlets youth service”. The mighty Rapid Response Team” only seem to work with one section of one community – youth workers and managers do not seem to represent this diverse community and focus on one section of this community – funding of faith organisations youth provisions seen hugely one sided and divisionalry
=> Snowman,
You are absolutely correct.
The problem is much more widespread than Tower Hamlets. One finds it predominantly in Labour controlled councils.
The Tory government is actively, and has been for some years, promoting “Faith” as a dubious and inadequate substitute for “Community”. The government are simply copying the Yanks who seem obsessed with religion instead of with community cohesion.
Believe it or not, the kids / youths / young adults are actually a party of our community yet their needs are always ignored by local authorities – perhaps because the kids have no vote or, if they have a vote, are too disillusioned by the failures of ‘the adults in control’ to use their vote.
Curious Cat.
Excellent comment
Imran
What do you think would be the best way forward to help achieve better levels of integration and better social cohesion in
* the UK?
* London?
* Tower Hamlets?
Interjecting …
>You couldn’t make it up!
In a word: inclusiveness
To enable this: we need to better manage (ie slow) immigration so that we can all concentrate on integrating diverse ethnic and cultural minorities into our society.
Inclusiveness depends upon a willingness to integrate, and this can only be achieved if we are allowed time to focus on our existing multi cultural structure and work towards achieving mutual respect and understanding – whether at borough, metropolitan or national level. .
It’s not happening fast enough or effectively enough.
Imran
Thanks for your really helpful and informed comment. I want to ask about a point you made. When you said:
“There is a worrying trend amongst the vast majority of the UK Muslims particularly those who are actually ‘British’, to be seen as being ‘good’ Muslim. This means, they must SEEN to be supporting Islamic causes, supporting Muslim candidates, forwarding endless Islamic messages, defending Islam in every debate etc.”
What do you think is causing this trend? I don’t want to hear about external factors like the Iraq War because – lets face it – it happened 11 years ago when many of these youth were just toddlers and also other events like our intervention on behalf of Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo seems to have had no counter-affect. So, what can be making them feel the need to be seen to be, as you say, “good” Muslims?
What I want to know is what sort of social pressure is being brought to bear on young people in Tower Hamlets and who is leading it.
As for times changing, Last year I worked with some 16-19 year old male British-Bengalis at a Tower Hamlets college. What struck me was that this group of students was how opposed they were to any discussion or attempts to engage in thinking about politics and/or religion. The phrase I distinctly remember them saying was “I’m not interested in any of that” and they were quite adamant about it. They made it quite clear that they (a) they aspired to live in Chelsea (they like the reality tv programme) and wanted to get out of LBTH, (b) they did not identify with Bangladesh, they had problems speaking the language properly and actually felt more “black” (because of the music) than Asian, (c) they avoided attending mosque because of who they called “the idiots”, (d) they wore the trendiest western clothes (endlessly looking at websites about trainers) and preferred to be clean-shaven, (e) they wanted to have many western girlfriends but accepted they would have to marry a Bengali girl one day, (f) smoking cannabis was commonplace, (g) they seemed quite hostile towards the people who wore strict Islamic dress.who in return were quite hostile towards them… it struck me that there were fault lines in British-Bengali youth culture with some people seeking to move away from the religious model but by so doing coming under a great deal of social pressure to conform.
It might help explain the differences of opinion on the Will Crooks Estate…are you aware of this?
Ed makes an excellent point.
For a very long time (and I go back to the 70s) “Muslim” was never ever used to describe the latest wave of immigration in and around Brick Lane – which has subsequently ‘migrated’ around the borough.
The phrase used was ALWAYS Bengali or Bangladeshi. There was never any mention of religion. It just wasn’t an issue.
So is this a community which should be called British Bengalis? Is that the most appropriate term?
I certainly think the terms used by Americans have a lot to recommend in terms of recognising joint heritage.
History has a lot to teach us. It’s more than likely the case that in another couple of decades it’s more than likely that the change will happen anyway. The next stage of the traditional migration will occur and the ambitious young of today will do what those who have gone before have always done – which is move out to a nice semi in the Outer London Boroughs – at the other end of the A12 / A13 near to the M25! Even Ted has gone to live in Newham! 😉
I certainly agree that moving away from referencing people by their religion would be extremely helpful in promoting social cohesion. However, I’d suggest LBTH needs to go further than that.
During the Olympics, there was an exhibition in Victoria Park by The Photographers’ Gallery.
The exhibition was called The World in London. It comprised 204 photographic portraits of 204 Londoners, who each lived in London and who came from one of the nations competing at the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games.
Now if people from 204 nations can come to London to live and work in harmony – how come we have problems in Tower Hamlets?
Might it be useful to look at the different ways which different nationalities adopt in an effort to be successful in finding ways to live alongside, understand and integrate with their fellow Londoners?
Are there any lessons to be learned from all those who have come to live in London?
It is a good comment by Imran – and what is interesting is what process caused the change in the way that family dresses now compared to 1984.
I think it is the poor practice by officialdom to refer to people by their religion, usually if Muslim. No one would ever dream of calling the residents of Penzance – the ‘Christians’ (as, nominally, the majority still will be). This sort of language predominates here on this blog as well – there is reference to an “elder” coming out and saying something and he is seen as authoritative. Would anyone ever write, “When we get into an argument, on a Basildon estate, the (white) elder came out and told the kid to ‘leave it, mush’.
It is true that some, but I suspect a small minority wished to be described primarily as ‘Muslims’ and this has gained weight, but it is a retrograde step up – people don’t generally say the ‘Hindus’ of Wembley but the Gujeratis (or just the ‘Asians’ or ‘Indians’).
It leads to all sort of guff such as the ‘Muslim community;’ this is no truer than say the ‘Catholic community of Liverpool’. And this ‘elders’ rubbish – no-one would presume that old Cockney, on the Basildon estate, has any influence and it is likewise just simple minded racism to think that some older Bengali person is in some position of influence and that some fictitious ‘community’ follow them like sheep, such as in who to vote for.
I almost agree with you. Maybe fully. The ‘elder’ in my family would say the concept has pretty much disappeared from Sylheti/Bengali culture in the East End…and from urbanised areas in Bangladesh.
I think it was the police here who referred to an elder on that estate; there may well be one or two who think they take on that role but it’s doubtful they have the authority traditional elders had.
You’re right to point out that it’s officialdom who more frequently use that term; their language and understanding is probably outdated and over-simplified. Lazy even. And over-optimistic.
Labeling people is a divisive thing in the UK, apparently because well meaning white middle class people in authority are ignorant and/or scared of offending people.
In the States various groups are called Asian-American, Afro-American etc with American always there and it’s inclusive denoting a shared background. In the UK when authorities speak, and too many time in paperwork, there is reference to ‘Muslim’, alone, or ‘Black’ and sometimes even when British is mentioned it is shorthand for white, as if other races and cultures can not be.
Of course the US still has MANY problems, but the terminology denotes an aspiration of being together.
In the UK the authorities (almost always white middle classes with minimal knowledge of others) think attaching British is enforcing a culture and prejudice. Utterly stupid, and just one example of actions which is leading to massive segregation in UK cities.
Another thing is the term BAME. Black and minority ethnic. Why is there black and then every other race, religion etc lumped together as one under ‘minority’? Why not just the term ‘minority’ to encompass black and all the rest, and then if further explanation needed list the minority?
Good point re. the elders!
I would add that I think you’ll find a lot of Asians and other people from different countries around the world living in other parts of London actually call themselves ‘Londoners’.
It’s perfectly possible to call yourself a Londoner and to also be proud of your heritage inherited from your grandparents or parents who were born in another country. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
So what do you say when somebody asks you where you’re from?
It’s perfectly possible to call yourself a Londoner and to also be proud of your heritage inherited from your grandparents or parents who were born in another country. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
Yes but is it wise ?
Heritage is another nonsense. I am English, by birth, and the English heritage contains many things I could never be proud of
* hanging starving Londoners who stole bread to eat
* forced to be navy seamen and treated harshly and even killed by the ships’ commanders or at their whim
* the slave trade
* killing hundreds of thousands around the world because they dared to object to rule by the British
* murdering many thousands of British soldiers medially unfit to fight in the First World War
etc. etc. etc.
The heritage bollocks is a sanitised version of reality and of history. There are usually TWO SIDES to very story – except when its when only the quaint version applies.
Forget the past no one ever had (‘cos it happened before we were born) and live for today.
So what do you say when somebody asks you where you’re from?
Dead easy. I come from my mother Simple, ain’t it. 🙂
Curious Cat
You may think heritage is a nonsense and others would disagree
Integration starts when we demonstrate some respect for the perspective of others.
My comment was in relation to the heritage that people are proud of. There’s really no need to drag the conversation down by highlighting every bad thing that has ever been done.
Nor is it helpful to have an attitude which fails to recognise that people do belong to have communities and do have cultures they feel attached to. That goes for every part of society.
Culture and communities are facts of life – they’re real. The challenge is in working out how to get them to live alongside one another in harmony. That usually happens when we all show some respect of the culture of another person – and that works both ways. If you want respect you need to show respect.
Hi Ted
I thought Jew-hatred is illegal under the hate speech laws. Not surprising that the police did nothing – they conspicuously failed to act at the pro-Israel Kedem demonstration either at which antisemitism was rife but the pro-Israel demonstrators were peaceful and cheeful. If I were a Jew I’d be thinking of emigrating. Shades of Nazi Germany.
Keep on keeping on
SC
Simon Charles
Imran
i don’t understand why you think it is acceptable to put up a blatantly religious- and divisive- symbol, in a public space.
Any comments?
I don’t think he did think it was acceptable given the context.
I thought his/her comment was v perceptive.
Lol Ted, I am lesbian transsexual drag queen with a very masculine Muslim name. Thought you’d have worked that one out.
Well that was an extraordinarily batch of good, insightful, thoughtful and spiteless comments from Imran at 1.49am through to Ted’s at 9.40PM with 40 thumbs-up to only one thumb-down.
If I could give out gold stars over the Internet then I would.
[…] and extremism. Any pretence that it was all just an innocent misunderstanding was shattered when the flag was re-flown again days after being taken […]
The criminal who made the racist comment probably doesn’t know what shahada is and is not a spokesperson for the Muslim community. Wilcrooks is just another failed estate in the borough. There is a venomous undercurrent to many of the anonymous comments that are being made on this issue. News is being made here of no news. This blog is in danger of becoming a hotbed of Islamophobia where racist and offensive remarks become an everyday occurrence. Across the country minorities are being racially abused as a result of this style of reporting in revenge attacks, but you will never hear about them. It’s as if this incident has been staged on purpose, and by design, by an unseen hand.
lol lal: “It’s as if this incident has been staged on purpose, and by design, by an unseen hand”.
The thing is this is just one of a number of incidents to occur within this borough within a short period of time that are muslim-led and muslim-focused. Since the cries of “islamophobic” and “racist” that were a feature of the recent mayoral campaign we have had a near constant drip of incidents dotted around the borough with provocative flags in the Blackwall tunnel; a Poplar estate; the Town Hall; in Grove Road; and a shop shutter repeatedly daubed with paint ‘cos it offends some youths. This is divisive and the Mayor, his cabinet and the police chiefs need to act to bring cohesion within the borough whilst it is still possible.
I don’t think it can get any worse. You will not see civil unrest like in Paris, Bradford or Tottenham here, no matter what local politicians say. I agree local Bangladeshi politics is to blame for current situation. There’s good and bad people everywhere. In a way I am glad these stories have been reported as it will give the community the chance to address them. Segregation is the problem look at the make up of the schools this is where it starts. Housing Associations claim to be “community led” organisations and are supposed to promote cohesion but all they care about is profit. They seem to think as long as they have a mosque they will be satisfied, what about everyone else.There is no space left to breath in Tower Hamlets, in my estate the park, football pitch and grass area have disappeared over the cover of darkness. I predict in the future you will see more and more youths congregating on council estate pavements.
Which comments are racist and/or islamaphobic and in what way? Is that your best argument?
Lal, do you think Jews are to blame, or Freemasons or BOTH
Never underestimate the power of denial
I would argue that the councils development company cronies are to take some of the blame for the emergence of these council estate pavement jihadists who are being influenced and indoctrinated. They do not seem understand the potential impacts of squeezing so many people together with nowhere to go. Especially the impacts of high density with regards to the social, emotional, cognitive and mental development of children. Mayor doesnt care he just wants his face on the advertising.
Meanwhile, in Oxford Street:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/12/ISIS-agitators-London
We need a strong government to draft laws to save our society
You have to laugh at the paranoia.
Some people hand out leaflets saying THE Islamic state has been established and Muslims should emigrate to it and this is a lead story in the Mail etc. The cops say they are investigating it (!)
Can you see such a brouhaha if somebody handed out leaflets saying ‘Emigrate to New Zealand’?
Anyway, I would have thought many of the Islamaphobes, would be pleased to hear those such as Anjem Choudhary (who ‘recognises’ the new Islamic state) may be off to the middle of a war zone.
Also, I have to presume that it is only lack of police resources that has yet stopped them from raiding the HQ of the Salvation ‘Army!!,’ seizing their incendiary publication called the War Cry!!! (which calls for the overthrow of the present world order and replacement of it with an absolute theocracy!!) and using a full paramilitary response on the SA troops who infiltrate Oxford Street and other prime terrorist targets, dressed in a uniform (a practice that was banned to counter the BUF in the 30s) and have ‘Generals’ etc in their ranks.
The Sally (Salvation Army) has good intentions towards people. It has never indicated it wants to wage military war and murder civilians who don’t want to join the Salvation Army.
Conversely, judging from what is known about the “Islamic state”, they are evil, destructive and misuse Islam for their own non-Islamic purposes.
Do you really think you can fool everyone that your mates in the “Islamic state” are as benign as a friendly pet loving society ? Was not the Oxford Street event an attempt to recruit potential bombers and potential terrorists to operate in the UK ?
Even the Human Rights of Free Speech and of Self Expression have corresponding responsibilities towards society.
The IRA bombings were bad enough. If your mates in the “Islamic state” start attacking us in the UK, I expect their efforts to be at least 100 times worse than the IRA’s.
I do not find “it” funny.
Curious Cat.
Well said Curious Cat. No one died from tambourines or brass bands; maybe got deaf! The attempt to make moral equivalences between ISIS, the SA and emigrating to NZ are laughable!
The equivalences are there – if you will but open your eyes – between the Oxford Street leafleters and the Sally Army. The Muslim leaflet simply says the Khalifate has been established and that Muslims should go there and support the entity. Neither in this leaflet, nor the Sally Army (in its paper) are calling for bombings, shootings, terrorism etc. but are simply religious tracts.
The Muslim leaflet is also vainglorious – noting that the new Muslim leader will need to take advice from people like them – as though the head of state of a country bigger than the UK, with heavy arms and billions of dollars, is going to listen to a bunch of Ilford losers, like Choudhary, who incidentally (along with his thick hangers-on) are the characters who would rip down our socialist leaflets – so much for my “mates.”
Why give these idiots publicity? I can imagine Choudhary salivating about the coverage. It’s a non-story but the sort of incident’ (you can hardly call it that) that soon will be ‘remembered’ as an attempt to ‘seize Oxford Street and destroy the infidel’.
South Park, did you struggle at school?
They should charge anyone supporting the caliphate with treason. And because we are at war with them it would actually be high treason. What a shame Blair (now I know why) abolished the death penalty for high treason.
It is a treasonable offence to “adhere to the sovereign’s enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere”
=> Maurice,
They should charge anyone supporting the caliphate with treason. And because we are at war with them it would actually be high treason. What a shame Blair (now I know why) abolished the death penalty for high treason.
Murder is wrong even when the state does it.
Look at the Council of Europe’s (to UKIP lovers, it is not the same as the EU) …………
Protocol No. 6 to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty
CETS No.: 114
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=114&CL=ENG
Tony Blair, who became prime minister for the first time in 1997. ratified the protocol on 20/5/1999, 14 years AFTER the treaty became effective. Shamefully the Tories do not like the public having Human Rights.
Curious Cat.
Murder of any sort is wrong. However, we should indefinitely inter those against our state in somewhere like St Kilda. No internet, computers, mobiles, no printers, no boats! It’s only fair we treat them the same as we did the enemies of the state in WW1, WW2 and NI.
I have been considering St Helena.
CC.
Do not expect any action from Tower Hamlets Homes on this.This is the most useless organistation going.Oh yes, they will make all the right noises, but are afraid to do any thing.All chief honcho Gavin Cansfield is interested in is spending money,money, money on useless projects,office accomodation,worthless surveys while all the estates are a mess because of any lack of action from staff.Getting the caretakers to remove it,ha, haYou will have to find them first,as most troop of home in the early afternoon.Same with graffiti on the estates,they completely ignore it.If residents do not report it hard luck.Maybe they should get tough and state any resident or family member indulging in this anti social behaviour will be evicted.Come on Lutfer time to dismantle this turkey called TTH,as John Biggs promised.All it is doing is costing the council tax payer and tenants dear.
I would be very surprised if Caretakers removed the flag. They refuse to anything more than the bare minimum as anything else is a ‘health and safety’ issue.
High density development and loss of public play space isn’t helping the children and young people of Tower Hamlets.
Please see statement from a local hero who grew up on an estate in the borough and went on to play in the premiership and the world cup.
Why do people go on about a lack of ‘role models?’ Parents ought to be able to teach their kids the difference between right and wrong.
Some kids like Dizzy Rascal may only have had just one parent, and have benefited from having a positive role model. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2307447/Danny-Shittu-interview-Millwall-captain-talks-wheeler-dealer-playing-volleyball-marking-Lionel-Messi.html
Most kids from one or two parent families grow up to be responsible, productive citizens without becoming famous to bang on about the ‘lack of role models’.
=> Jay Kay
Why do people go on about a lack of ‘role models?’ Parents ought to be able to teach their kids the difference between right and wrong.
But ……. only if the parents are aware of the differences between Right and Wrong and think it important enough to educate their children about Right and Wrong.
British society is far from perfect. “Dysfunctional families” is a well-known description in police, council and social services daily activities.
As Tony Blair used to tell us EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION and he was correct.
Curious Cat.
=> Jay Kay
Most kids from one or two parent families grow up to be responsible, productive citizens without becoming famous to bang on about the ‘lack of role models’.
But …… children, just like adults, are NOT clones. They are different and each is susceptible to the multitude of influences in their daily lives.
Some do need a good role model (as opposed to not needing a bad role model) or whatever one wishes to name the essential for modifying bad behaviour and encouraging good behaviour.
Curious Cat.
I agree most kids in Tower Hamlets will grow up to be responsible and productive citizens. What about the message from the international footballer about the negative impacts of losing public play space?
=> Barry
What about the message from the international footballer about the negative impacts of losing public play space?
Losing so-called public spaces, especially playing areas, parks and green fields (what does a green field look like?) is utterly stupid and detrimental to the whole of society (OK, almost the whole of society excluding the wealthy who can buy their own green spaces).
Playing and just wandering around in green and pleasant areas is essential for the well-balanced development of children. Unfortunately councils and the national government do not really agree – hence the concreting-over of play areas and green spaces.
How can the permanent removal of children’s playing areas and spaces ever be considered ‘positive’ ? It is really moronically stupid – that is why local residents should form their own political party and fight to gain control of their failing council and then to implement GOOD decisions benefiting the community.
Identifying the injustices and the bad decisions never improves the status quo. Actions speak louder than words.
Curious Cat.
Thank you Cat. I could not have said it better. Only posted the tweet as I thought it was relevant to the original post about youths on another estate up the road getting upto no good. I will take your advise and join other residents who are currently out knocking doors. Getting some publicity on an influencial blog can also be a positive thing 🙂
Barry, I know your estate in Mile End very well you had a failing secondary school which has been transformed, you will have a new medical centre, mosque and a new primary school. Sometimes a little compromise is important.
What about motivation, personal ambition, aspiration? Must ‘youth’ have everything provided for them or are they not supposed to take some responsibility themselves?
=> Jay Kay
What about motivation, personal ambition, aspiration? Must ‘youth’ have everything provided for them or are they not supposed to take some responsibility themselves?
Youths are trainee adults. They are learning as they grow-up.
Surely RESPONSIBLE adults, and those that profess to have concerns for the youths, have sufficient functioning brain cells within their cranium, to realise – without prompting from me and from others – that youths having are inadequate if the ADULTS control the resources and the facilities.
Groot is very stupid when he (a woman would normally have much more sense) has the audacity to tell the youths (which including kids / children) that losing their valuable recreational facility is justified because, in Groot’s own words .
Bollocks. Unless the community fights to retain play areas, grassed areas, allotments (although with the very high levels of pollution in London the food would be unfit to eat), parks, trees, bushes and other greenery it will be lost permanently. Then in a few years time another fool will similarly tell the bulging population that same misleading crap that losing even more play areas, grassed areas, allotments, parks, trees, bushes and other greenery is again justified because .
STOP the constant flood of refugees in to England. Sort-out the problems in their own countries, so there is no need for them to flood into Europe.
STOP having more than 2 children. The world is full-up.
STOP voting for crap sub-standard politicians because the public really deserves a lot better.
STOP building on every blade of green grass in the name of ‘progress’.
Time for free universal education, but not in rubbish subjects like media studies, for youths and for adults. Only with EDUCATION will the bigots with closed-down thought facilities be able to appreciate the problems of today.
*** Youths are part of the community *** Please do not punish them or deprive them of community facilities because they are young and dependent on the actions and decisions of wise? adults.
Curious Cat.
CC. You’re rambling off-topic again. Stick to the point please.
TH council are totally uncaring, mean, and stupid about our young people. For example King Edward Memorial Park has a football pitch, ok its not grass, but it has goalposts and faint lines. For the past few years it has been regularly used at weekends by well organised, well kitted out, youth football teams, the majority being Asian teams, surely an ideal situation? NO, our wonderful, sensitive, youth conscious council have decided to rent the pitch to the new farmers market in the Shadwell Basin for the stallholders to park their vans in. (Usually about 6 vans). What utter, utter stupidity!!! Come on TH, instead of taking a couple of bob rental, spend some for our youth, paint some lines, give them a bench. Sport unites all!
=> John Wright
TH council are totally uncaring, mean, and stupid …….
It is NOT only wonderful TH. It is a common occurrence among many councils. The incompetent nincompoops haven’t got a clue about the “community” which they are paid to serve.
Your justified concerns are another reason why locals should unite, form a non-political political party, contest local elections and put NORMAL people on the council to genuinely serve the residents of TH.
Being honest and truthful, NORMAL non-political local residents could not do a worse job, even if they tried. Only complaining is inadequate for genuine community reform and improvement. Actions speak louder than words.
Curious Cat.
John – You know as well as anyone that LBTH would sell or rent anything for a quick buck. However, the borough has over 120 parks and green spaces.
Yeah parks; not CAR parks. How many of the 120 can you name? That’s almost 1 for every 2000 of us
=> Jay Kay,
I thought the connections would be obvious but apparently not.
1. Kids need good role models.
2. Kids facilities being closed and the space used to cater for bulging population
If the kids lack good role models, how will ‘kicking them out’ of community owned facilities (parks, play areas and youth clubs etc.) on to the streets where they may meet and congregate with those with anti-social tendencies, actually improve the kids/youths social attitudes ?
It is unreasonable and illogical to expect the kids/youths to provide their own facilities when everything ‘community’ is controlled by the adults who, it seems in Tower Hamlets, do not really care about the welfare and the social, emotional and educational development of the kids/youths.
Ignoring one section of the local community, because of indifference and other right-wing attitudes of the adults, is very short-sighted because of the inevitable consequences to the whole of society.
Just image some kids/youths wanting to build electronic projects like computer controlled vehicles, robots and other cheap to build devices. Image some girls wanting to learn more about dress making or some boys really interested in knowing more what is inside computers and how to program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi etc. – how can they do this on a street corner ?
Surely the better place is inside a youth club building big enough to accommodate ALL the kids/youths, be fully equipped including with a gym, and be under sensible and responsible adult supervision ?
Ignoring the needs of the under-represented members of the community is callous, in my opinion of course, but amazingly typical among ‘politicians’ from all major political parties. Whilst there is no law against adults being uncaring and slagging-off the kids/youths for personal pleasure or illogical spite, some careful thinking might benefit both the adults and the kids/youths.
Curious Cat.
The provision of public play facilities in Tower Hamlets is very constrained, and the councils Open Space Strategy has previously highlighted the lack of open space within the borough against the national standard. Residents are living on a gold mine for developers here and this competition for open space is reducing our kids opportunities for outdoor play. Actions do speak louder than words but there is very little residents can do to stop any of this. Raising awareness about the reduction in public play space and the negative impacts this is having on our community is therefore very important, but the print and broadcast media are not that committed to campaigning on this issue.